The Last WRX with a 6MT?

"Driving Sports TV" (drivingsports)
08/12/2020 at 10:59 • Filed to: Subaru

Full review.

2020 Subaru WRX Series.White Review - Wait for 2021 WRX?

DISCUSSION (25)

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Driving Sports TV
08/12/2020 at 11:12

A quick Google search tells me the take rate on the 6MT in the WRX/STI is 88%. Subaru would be really stupid to not offer it in the next generation. That’s probably helped by the STI being manual only but WRX on its own still has to be well over 50%.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
08/12/2020 at 11:16

Came here to say the same.

Plenty of drivers in the mountain west who want the manual for engine braking and would never consider a CVT.

Dusty Ventures > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
08/12/2020 at 11:29

It’s fascinating to me just how high the manual take rate is on the WRX and BRZ when it's so low overall. Doubly so on the latter when the Toyota/Scion variant is basically the inverse

DasWauto > Driving Sports TV
08/12/2020 at 11:33

I dislike the clickbait title. No chance Subaru gets rid of the manual trans for the WRX given the take rate is >70%, IIRC.

There’s a higher chance of the next STI not staying stick-only but I hope that’s not the case either, unless they offer some sort of sequential or DCT but that’s probably wishful thinking.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Dusty Ventures
08/12/2020 at 11:35

I totally get why the WRX is so high. The disparity between the BRZ and the FRS/86 is what's more intriguing to me.

DasWauto > Dusty Ventures
08/12/2020 at 11:43

I suspect the average age of the 86 buyer is significantly higher than that of the BRZ. The badge probably brings a demographic that wants to relive their youth in the lowest risk , most reliable way possible, clueless to the fact that it is really a Subaru.

wafflesnfalafel > Driving Sports TV
08/12/2020 at 12:01

I heard they are going to use a Ford sourced DCT unit

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Driving Sports TV
08/12/2020 at 12:16

The only way it will be the last manual-gearbox WRX is if it is the last WRX.

Or if they pull a M itsubishi and turn a performance car nameplate into a boring non-performance CUV...

Which Subaru is entirely capable of doing, BTW.

They need to change it into something much more compelling than a 15-year-old paradigm that has long since been surpassed by other, newer turbo AWD sedans, that are also dying on the vine.

Why would anyone over the age of 25 buy a WRX, when they could buy a 5-door turb0-V6 AWD Stinger GT? (I fully admit the Stinger is a better Legacy GT than Subaru has built, and I used to own a 2005 Legacy 2.5GT 5-speed sedan.)

And why would anyone under the age of 25 buy a new car they can’t afford, let alone one that was popular with their parents 15 years ago?

Subaru could have built Crosstrek into a 5-door rally-car for the road, but they didn’t.

They could have built the WRX as an evolved sport sedan to take the place of the Legacy GT that they axed. They didn’t.

They could have built an AWD import GT/Sport coupe 2+2 to provide an alternative to the muscle-cars from the big-3. They didn’t.

They could have built something interesting, like a mainstream shooting brake, like an affordable Ferrari FF/GTC-4 Lusso. They didn’t build their Cross Sport concept car.

They could have built a high-performance CUV out of Forester with STI bits. They didn’t.

They could have built a junior Porsche 718 with Toyota, and sold an MR2 successor, instead of a corolla coupe successor that didn’t even have corolla’s liftback hatch. But they didn’t.

They could have delivered on roughly 4 dozen or so VIZIV concept cars that they have shown. But they didn’t.

They make Outbacks.

And shortened Outbacks (Forester)

And super-sized Outbacks (Ascent)

And mini Outbacks (crosstrek) and cheap mini Outbacks (Impreza)

And sedan Outbacks (Legacy)

and mini sedan faster sporty Outbacks (WRX/STI)

And they pay back their Toyota masters by building them a sport coupe that is good at handling parts of sport... but way short on power and torque, or widespread appeal to anyone who wants anything other than a tiny little coupe that handles pretty well... like say a Grand Touring coupe, or a convertible, or something that goes fast as well as it turns.

Wacko > DasWauto
08/12/2020 at 12:20

well it goes with the bad lead images with a stupid pose pointing at the car.

DasWauto > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
08/12/2020 at 12:50

The WRX is the only game in town at its pricepoint. It is the only AWD, manual transmission sport compact under $30k. Why would anyone over 25 buy one? That’s why, and that’s why I did.

The Stinger GT comparison is invalid - different pricepoint entirely. As for STI, arguments can be made but it’s a very different driving experience to the Kia, appealing in its own right, though badly due for an update.

Subaru builds crossovers because that’s what sells. Why lament them for that if it allows the WRX/STI/BRZ to continue to exist?

A mainstream shooting brake? Give me a break. It wouldn’t sell and you know it.

Ah, the old complaint of the BRZ not having enough power. It’s the modern 240SX and those had 40 less hp. It’s also basically as fast to 60 as a WRX, which no-one gives crap for being slow. Again, get over it, or buy the new one which will supposedly have an N/A 2.4 with a good bump in power if it can have similar specific output.

I just hope the next WRX/STI is available as a hatch again because that’ll easily convince me to buy another. Also, a new Forester XT would be cool, and is not unlikely to be on the way.

Btw, the Legacy GT the exists again, it’s just the XT now but sadly you can’t get it with a stick.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > DasWauto
08/12/2020 at 13:37

It is disappointing that it is the only game in town, in general, or on the Subaru lots.

Why on earth would you buy one new, when the same EXACT car can be bought pre-depreciated? Other than warranty and wear, there is no big unique sales proposition for buying new.

I wouldn’t dream of driving a WRX or STI to work as someone older than 25, which is why I bought my Legacy GT once upon a time. I saved for a couple of years to get that, I can’t be bothered with the new one.

A shooting brake would not be a sales leader, no... but it would be more practical than BRZ as a niche car... and give a bit more versatile appeal for a similar segment between BRZ and WRX... and with AWD and turbo... would perform as well or better than WRX, and look better, and be more interesting. Think of it as a 2-door hatch, that doesn’t bother with un-useable rear seats, or extra doors for them.

There is more to power than horsepower... and having no torque to speak of, is not helpful. 240SX may have had less horsepower, but it likely had much more driveable torque.

I loved driving my SVX more than driving the Miata I also had at the same time... on anything other than a curvy back road. The Miata was the better performer, but anything less specifically handling-oriented, higher speed, or longer distance , the SVX was bett er. However, the Miata could drop the top on a nice day. BRZ drives like a Miata without the open-air factor, and not anything like a buttery-smooth, continent-crossing SVX.

Driving Sports TV > Wacko
08/12/2020 at 13:37

Welcome to YouTube.

TRivet > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
08/12/2020 at 13:51

Easy - the WRX is a better car for me. It checks every box

Turbo - check

Manual - check (not available in the Kia)

Well developed and engineered with a genuin e racing pedigree - check (not so with the Kia)

AWD - check (required for a daily in MI)

Reliable - check (if properly maintained)

Practical - check (4 door roomy enough for 4 adults)

Affordable - check (LOTS of bang-for-the-buck here, avg $10k less)

Source: 52 years old, bought my WRX last fall. Will buy another when I’m done with this one (probably a LONG time from now....)

TRivet > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
08/12/2020 at 13:54

I agree with you regarding the MUCH stiffer STI, but the WRX is a great daily driver.

gettingoldercarguy > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
08/12/2020 at 13:56

Responding to the stinger comment.

A) aftermarket. I view a factory car as a starting point. Much like a base recipe that is then adjusted to match for personal tastes. The stinger had zero aftermarket compared to the wrx (Not zero overall).

B) B road fun. I’ll absolutely crush a stinger on b roads. In fact, I’ll wager most cars. The car is more fun the harder I push too. No nasty surprises if I overcook a corner. It’s fast on the track as well, especially in the wet.

C) I can haul my three toddlers in backwards facing child seats. I can haul a lot of groceries, take people to and from the airport without being 2+2 cramped.

D) symmetrical awd. No it’s not marketing hype, in low traction driving scenarios it truly does work.

E) manual transmission

F) manual transmission

G) manual transmission

DasWauto > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
08/12/2020 at 14:30

WRXs have some of the best resale value around. Low mileage examples offer little savings over a new one. Factor in the warranty and the fact that a lot of these cars get tuned (not mine) and thrashed (guilty, but well maintained), buying new is not a hard sell. Why would I save $5k to lose much or most of the warranty on a pre-abused car?

While it’s not at the Kia Stinger level of refinement, n or that of a GTI for that matter, the current WRX is a very livable car, much moreso than earlier ones. The turbo spools at much lower rpms, fuel economy is fine if you’re not on it all the time (hard to resist, admittedly) and the interior likely has as much space as your old L egacy GT (seriously, at 6’5” I can sit behind myself, though I do run out of headroom).

It’s far from perfect, I’ve written as much before, but the driving experience is unique and unmatched. I’ve been shopping to replace it and can’t seem to bring myself to do it. I’m a bit lost on that one actually but there’s a couple of pending debuts that will have my attention, namely the next WRX/STI and the GR Corolla.

gettingoldercarguy > DasWauto
08/12/2020 at 15:35

At my wife’s practice the only people driving around in expensive German cars are nurses and below (pay grade) . Every physician is driving a Subaru,Honda or Toyota and not an expensive one. People who drive expensive cars to look successful are funny.

DasWauto > gettingoldercarguy
08/12/2020 at 15:47

My other car is a BMW. :p

It’s more than 10 years old though. :) The only bimmer I’d like to buy new is an M2 competition but I don’t want to spend that kind of cash on one car.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > DasWauto
08/12/2020 at 15:52

You are right, if WRX fits your bill, not much else competes.

A year or two old isn’t really worth it... but 3 or 4 might be. I had to get a used Legacy GT in 2007, because no dealers would stock a manual GT Limited sedan... and Subaru had cancelled the good colors and interior color choice by then

I would hope the turbo runs better with the FA20DIT engine with higher static compression and direct injection. EJ255 in my old Legacy cruised at 3200rpm, to stay near boost, and the suspension failed twice, and the interior was showing significant wear by 100K miles. My 92 SVX was in worse shape from neglect of previous owners, but the build quality was clearly superior and screwed together better than the ‘05 Legacy... and better interior and finish quality now should be expected, but it still doesn’t seem class leading, or even competitive with the fit and finish of the likes of Toyota or Mazda, or even Hyundai/Kia, which were a running JOKE as recently as the 1990s, but are class leaders today.

T here have to be incentives on the hood of new Kia Stingers, or the Genesis/Hyundai variant, with a 10 year warranty, more room, more power, better interior, amenities, looks, and a rear hatch on the Kia.

The weird thing is... there are AWD better touring sedans than WRX.

There are better turbo sport coupes than WRX as performance cars... Used BMW 2-series, Mustang EcoBoost HPP, etc... Heck a high-mile used 718 base Cayman might come in around the high-WRX, or STI price-range.

There even was a better 5-door hatch AWD, in the Focus RS....

But Subaru doesn’t react... they keep selling the same old thing. They don’t even combine the FA-series engine with the amortized STI drivetrain... you have to pick either the better drivetrain, or the newer engine.

They don’t really seem to either go all in on a sedan (although sedans are dying... I can kinda see why...) a performance CUV, or a truly widely appealing sport coupe that has more than one core competency.

A WRX or STI level Crosstrek should have been done YEARS ago, along with a REAL Forester XT or STI performance model , and a GT/Sport AWD coupe could be a good triple performance lineup. Maybe even a 350 + horsepower sport package Outback or Ascent.

I don’t see the point of trunk lids over rear hatches anymore... Legacy and SVX proved that to me, when a good size trunk is limited by the area of portal under the trunk lid, as the cargo bottle-neck.

Personally, I think a mainstream affordable AWD Turbo junior version of a car like Ferrari GTC-4 Lusso or even throw-back to cars like the MGB GT and such... would be interesting, to complement a lineup otherwise containing CUVs and what few sedans remain.

I can look at GTC-4 or a new Roma, and find them beautiful, but I can’t go buy an affordable alternative... You used to be able to look at Jaguar E-type, but then go buy a Triumph GT6, or a Nissan 240Z...

gettingoldercarguy > DasWauto
08/12/2020 at 16:39

Well, every bmw is expensive. Either in payments or maintenance.

My point was people living above or at the limit of their means to present an image of someone they aren’t.

I agree with your sentiment that it is silly to buy a used Subaru due to their high resale price and the wrx's risk of being hooned.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > gettingoldercarguy
08/12/2020 at 16:51

A: Aftermarket is good... but a two-edged sword, as it not only costs more money, it doesn’t help resale, and can possibly mechanically damage the car if done incorrectl y. Somewhat agreed, with caveats.

B: Yes, it will, but how often? Some people have that as a frequent occurrence and high priority, other people don’t... and un-comfortable, loud, annoying, or just unappealing applies even when not on a back-road. Somewhat agreed, when applicable, but not applicable all the time.

B-2: There are other dedicated performance cars that do as well, or better on back roads or track, if your pragmatic practical car is something else.

C: again... good for a 1 car household, maybe even 2... but if your practicality is already taken care of by something else... a personal/performance car may not need all that... Not a bad thing to have, but other cars pull it off too, or are lighter and tighter without having to accommodate that much practicality. Mixed reaction, wish Subaru had more product diversity.

D: A greed in your context . I do know and appreciate the benefits of Subaru’s Symmetrical AWD. In the manual gearbox and old 5-speed auto with VTD.

That agreement doesn’t necessarily extend to the CVT drivetrain that is mostly front biased, and doesn’t help much more than most modern transverse FWD-adapted AWD systems for non-performance driving settings.

E, F, and G. Agreed... but sadly diminishing.

Hybrid and Electric will make it a moot point, as well as symetrical mechanical AWD, as they are increasingly adopted.

2, 3, and 4 motor torque and regen-braking electric drivetrains will make that obsolete... the stumbling block relates to the batteries weight, capacity, and charging considerations... but PHEV can somewhat bridge that functionality, without the need for a multi-ratio transmission in the current sense... (really wish Koeniggsegg’s fluid coupling PHEV tech gest scaled to mainstream)

Subaru is selling a 15 year old drivetrain with roots going back another 20 years before that, in a car that even looks several years out of date, and have always been behind the curve on amenities and in-car tech features, aside from the trick drivetrain.

The thing is... some might argue that Model 3 Performance can do everything you just mentioned as well or better than a WRX or STI...

It is heavier, granted, but the center of gravity is at or below even Subaru’s flat-4 drivetrain... with similar interior room, more cargo room with the frunk, and FAR more current and aesthetically pleasing looks.

W hile Tesla Model 3 is more expensive, fuel, fluids, and other mechanical maintenance issues are off the table. Even then, it is still a bit higher, granted.

However, the performance and technology is FAR higher. Model Y even adds more cargo versatility with interior volume and a rear hatch. Maybe a used Model S considered there, too. It is like buying into the future, rather than buying into the past.

I am * not* a huge Tesla/Musk fan based on behavior, attitudes , and corporate policy, and the quality and support of their product after the sale, and I wouldn’t mind someone else competing with those cars as a BEV, or PHEV especially. But their cars aren’t without some merit, even just as an indicator of where the automotive industry is going.

But Subaru can’t keep doing the same things anymore... They have to come up with something interesting for the future, not just rehashing the past over and over again.

Toyota is proving that with RAV4 Prime PHEV with more than 300hp, and the fastest acceleration in the model lineup. Imagine that in a vehicle actually optimized and tuned for performance, rather than a tall CUV that just happens to be fast because the electric motors and engine can happen to do it.

It won’t beat a WRX on the track, but how much of the day-to-day stuff can it do FAR better, and more efficiently, while still possibly even being quick and maybe even fun?!

If someone really can only do 1 car... and they want AWD, a bit of power, and practicality... do you think WRX or STI is pushing against the likes of Tesla Model 3 and RAV4 PHEV? or is it under-performing on sales like the otherwise well-reviewed and liked Kia Stinger GT?

DasWauto > gettingoldercarguy
08/12/2020 at 17:02

Granted, I’m prepared for that and to do as much of the work as possible myself to mitigate the cost. I understood what you were getting at, I just thought it amusing that some might lump me in win that camp because of what I drive, despite image being the last reason I’d buy the 128i.

That being that it’s the last small, manual transmission, N/A straight six car BMW will likely ever build. It’s modern enough to be safe, have some amenities and not have too much tech to go wrong. No turbos, no direct injection, no infotainment to go horribly outdated and have the screen go wrong - relatively simple so if I take care of it the car shouldn’t give me too much grief.

That said, I’ve already spent waaaay more than is sensible on suspension upgrades. :P

t0ast > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
08/12/2020 at 21:14

Why would anyone over the age of 25 buy a WRX, when they could buy a 5-door turb0-V6 AWD Stinger GT?

34 and daily driving a current-gen STI here. The answer is because I enjoy feeling things when I drive, other metrics be damned. Dealing with obnoxiously complex and often problematic technology for a living also really makes a person just want to go “haha dumb car goes brr” sometimes (okay, a lot ) .

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > t0ast
08/12/2020 at 21:43

Fair enough for a valid opinion.

After owning Subarus… and appreciating the WRX and STI for what they are, but not really finding appeal for myself, I don’t really see that.

My 05 Legacy GT was better looking, and felt the same technically, and better tactile-wise. And even the simpler technology was obnoxious, with suspension failures, wheel bearing failures, engine that started to leak down gasoline into the oil and oil into the intake... an interior that started to wear, no folding rear seats, and no auxiliary input or replaceable head-unit for the stereo... it became a bit obnoxious.

And cruising above 3000RPM for hundreds of miles at a time... the car definitely went “brrrr” to the point where it got tiring.

I would have to feel something much more significant to pay ~30K for a new Subaru WRX , vs. paying 30K for a nice used Porsche 997 or 981 , and having something that feels BETTER, or the Grand Cherokee Overland that I have now, that is more versatile, more capable, more practical, and more comfortable, just not sporty.

pip bip - choose Corrour > Driving Sports TV
08/13/2020 at 03:51

GIB!